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Old 02-04-08, 15:04   #1
sampo
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202 or 253

Hey i've recently picked up a HG Kingswood which will be my new project car and are after peoples opinions on which is the best motor to suit my needs.
Id like to buid up a hot little 202
Blue 202 block
Blue 173 head which is rumored to possess the same size valves as the blue 202 head while giving a compression ratio close to 10.5:1
High performance air filter
blue 202 manifold
Extracors.
Thermo fans
Ideally it should produce a minimum of around 140fwkw from what ive been told, and around 260nm of torque.

The question is would it just be easier and cheaper in the long run to just drop in a 253v8 as they're a dime a dozen these days, but would need a new exhaust, trans and tailshaft to go with the conversion.

Ideally i'd like the car to be able to sound tuff and do a tuff skid, if i can meet both of these id be happy.

Last edited by sampo; 02-04-08 at 15:08.
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Old 02-04-08, 15:12   #2
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be the 1st to pu an ls1 lol na 202 sounds good make a tuf old school 6
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Old 02-04-08, 15:20   #3
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haha na im right with the ls1!! the price for pannels alone from places such as rare spares cost more than a 308! haha
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Old 02-04-08, 15:42   #4
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you could do the 202 much better justice mate.
standard manifolds are shit
if your going to rebuild it you wont need to worry about high comp 173 head, you can use flat top pistons and shave the head to raise comp more if needed. which means you can use a 12 port head.
the main deciding factor will be size of cam, head work and induction used.
if you wernt rebuilding the engine you could get away with using a 12 port head and shaving that also to reach the comp you want.

either way, just stick fat cam in it and do some head work and itl be a bit of fun
or could turbo it for twice as much power much easier
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Old 02-04-08, 16:06   #5
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From my understanding the Blue 173 from the VC Commodore is a 12 port head, however im not really sure what the differences are from the blue 173 head to the blue 202 head.

One person has said that they are exactly the same and that the 202 uses domed pistons to ulter compression, and another has said that the 173 head uses the same valves as the 202 but also adds to engine compresson.

turbo is out of the question for now, just want to get it running well for now, mods wont come till later but i can just randomly collect parts from the wreakers as i go, thrus why i posted up specs of what id like to do
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Old 02-04-08, 16:22   #6
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from what i understand the 173 head has smaller combustion chambers which raise comp when put on a 202 bottom end. and yeah sorry for some reason i was thinking 173 as in a red motor.
but still, if your taking the head off, it costs $50 to shave it to raise comp
if you just want something easy to get a bit more power, shave and port the head, fit a big cam and aftermarket manifold with a well tuned and jetted 350 holley, exhaust and HEI electric distributer
would cost fk all and be a bit of fun.
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Old 02-04-08, 17:51   #7
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173 is a red motor.
202 can be red, blue or black.

blue head will not go onto a red block without some major work - not worth doing in your case. Alot of cash.

The blue manifold wont fit a red engine as the ports are different. Blue is 12 port head red is 9 port head.

Now for 140fwkw.. its a big ask out of a stockish red motor... it takes money to get these things going. With a simple slap together job youre probably looking at 100-120kw. I think your power expectancy is probably a little too high unless you're willing to pay for an angry little rebuilt engine.
I had a mate spend HEAPS on a 202 (around $5k) and it got 130rwkw... wow... what a waste of time. This was a full rebuild, 12 port head (these sit slightly to the side to allow a large cam), ported head, rollers, carb, stroker crank so its actually a 208 now, and the thing is seriously a pain to drive... its cammed up to high heaven, does rear mains like theyre going out of fashion and it would struggle to keep up with a VN 5.0.

Do yourself a favour and drop in a 253 red motor. Upgrade the diff, trans and tailshaft.
1. Itll sound ok
2. It wont be a ball tearer but itll shred a 202.
3. Everything is interchangeable with a 308 red motor when you upgrade!

Last edited by PROGMH; 02-04-08 at 17:53.
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Old 02-04-08, 17:53   #8
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ah ok, thanks for the input, definantly some food for thought by the sounds of it

any reason why you would use a red motor over a blue?

Last edited by sampo; 02-04-08 at 18:12.
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Old 02-04-08, 18:20   #9
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No emissions regulations that you need to stick to. If you put a pre 72 red motor into a HG you wont need to keep emissions stuff on whereas after then you will.
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Old 02-04-08, 18:44   #10
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ah ok, and so if i were to put in a blue motor i would then have to comply with the emissions for that motor right?
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Old 02-04-08, 19:45   #11
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turbo 202?
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Old 02-04-08, 19:55   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinister
turbo 202?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlH7vyHGwCI

Supercharged 202.
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Old 03-04-08, 10:54   #13
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yeh bretts on the money, to be honest mate your best off with a V8
as much as i love my 202, i really wouldnt encourage anyone to spend money on one in n/a form lol. a turbo 202 is alot of fun, but will be a bit of cash, as with any turbo build.
a stock V8 with exhaust will outperfom most n/a 202s
only time an n/a 202 would be ok is in a torana
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Old 03-04-08, 11:52   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROGMH
173 is a red motor.
202 can be red, blue or black.

blue head will not go onto a red block without some major work - not worth doing in your case. Alot of cash.

The blue manifold wont fit a red engine as the ports are different. Blue is 12 port head red is 9 port head.

Now for 140fwkw.. its a big ask out of a stockish red motor... it takes money to get these things going. With a simple slap together job youre probably looking at 100-120kw. I think your power expectancy is probably a little too high unless you're willing to pay for an angry little rebuilt engine.
I had a mate spend HEAPS on a 202 (around $5k) and it got 130rwkw... wow... what a waste of time. This was a full rebuild, 12 port head (these sit slightly to the side to allow a large cam), ported head, rollers, carb, stroker crank so its actually a 208 now, and the thing is seriously a pain to drive... its cammed up to high heaven, does rear mains like theyre going out of fashion and it would struggle to keep up with a VN 5.0.

Do yourself a favour and drop in a 253 red motor. Upgrade the diff, trans and tailshaft.
1. Itll sound ok
2. It wont be a ball tearer but itll shred a 202.
3. Everything is interchangeable with a 308 red motor when you upgrade!
not meaning to be picky, but there is also a blue 173 (2.85L) in VC and VH's...
and to get 208ci, there is no need for a stroker crack, its just an overbore...
a stroker crank puts a 202 up to about a 232... (modified ford crank)...
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Old 03-04-08, 12:59   #15
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Found these a while back maybe worth a read if anyones interested in heading down a similar path

Grunt Hunt - Blue 202
page01.pdf
page02.pdf
page03.pdf

Got a few for the 253 as well, but they're pretty uncomplete.

Got another 6 to upload, but ill do them tonight when im not charged for internet usage!

Last edited by sampo; 03-04-08 at 13:04.
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Old 03-04-08, 14:25   #16
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202... if you where thinking 253 why not just put a 308 in it???

202 can be made go like stonk but its up to your scrounging ability.. like finding 179 yella terra heads to bolt up to give it some compression and flow. There was a race head of a HQ race car with Chevy roller rockers and all the good gear on ebay not to long ago. There are plenty of old timers that can make these things move for not heaps of money but finding they guys that now how to do it may be a challenge. In saying all that though a stock fresh 308 with a good amount of compression free exhaust and a tuned quaddie will trounce it.
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Old 03-04-08, 16:13   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atrail308
not meaning to be picky, but there is also a blue 173 (2.85L) in VC and VH's...
and to get 208ci, there is no need for a stroker crack, its just an overbore...
a stroker crank puts a 202 up to about a 232... (modified ford crank)...
Yeah I couldnt remember if 173s were in commodores.

Its actually a blue 202 crank into a 186 red block. Its majorly clearanced and actually goes out to 208 or thereabouts. After my mate did it... he can absolutely say it is not worth it! lol. Way too much money in machining etc and it goes ok but its no ball tearer.
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Old 04-04-08, 19:58   #18
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Just uploading the rest
page04.pdf
page05.pdf
page06.pdf
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Old 04-04-08, 20:04   #19
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Unfortunantly ive lost the 10th page, but basicly they added the VK EFI system and gained another 14hp

page07.pdf
page08.pdf
page09.pdf
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Old 04-04-08, 21:56   #20
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Just go 308 with efi heads and save doing it a 2nd time and wasting money on the six, or turbo 202.

A mate used to have a stroker 186 in a LJ and it went alright, so we thought till I got my first VLT and it was no longer alright , plus you'd have the extra weight.
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Old 04-04-08, 23:37   #21
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A long time ago in my youth, i had mates spend big dollars on the red motors, and we all found out pretty quick, that a even if you spend up on a red motor, a standard blue/black motor will still be faster. ( i am not talking carzy ****, just mild cam,head skim and 350 holley on the reds)
The Vk 202 carby black motors made 1kw less than the blue 253 motors out of the vh( obviusly there where no vk 253's. Obviously the 253 had more torque.

You used to be able to buy some tricky yella terra heads for the black motors
as replacements, but even with no other mods they lowered the 0-100kmdown a second, rare as hens teeth now though.

Personally after owning hg's, hq's, hx's hz's, i would just put a stock 308 on gas.
They only use the same amount of fuel as the 6 any unless you get stuck in traffic. Living up in th hills i always got better fuel economyaswell with the v8 ones, the 6's chewed it in those big heavy bodies.

What is your budget?, if yourskint, a injected or carby vk black motor would be the go, put a baby cam in it and shave the heads.
cheap now aswell,

Read those PDF files, good luck getting those yella terra heads, i tried to buy a set 13 yrs ago and they didn't make them anymore as yella terra run out of castings, the only hope was secondhand then, they were only $400-500 new back then. Doesn't tell you how much comp that motor had aswell, on todays premuim you could go quite high, if that motor only had 8.0 something, theres plenty of room to move.

A stocky style red 308 with a performer intake/rejetted quaddie/ small holley /extractor/exhaust , skimmed heads and something like a crane 268 would be the go for a v8 on the cheap.

Whats the budget?
cheers
darren

Last edited by Jet R31; 05-04-08 at 00:07. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 05-04-08, 09:41   #22
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Budget is rather tight at the moment due to the body needing quite a bit of body work, rust cut out, new floor pans, suspension overhaul etc.

Just need to decide which block i should start out with to aviod spending money twice. and more importantly get the thing moving under its own power!

At the moment a $200 253 looks to be the go, as from what i gather the 308 is a direct replacement. Yes its a classic poor man pays twice example but it doesnt seem to be as bigger loss as replacing the red6 drive line only to upgrade later.

Any one know a good place to look for replacement pannels? in particular the front and rear windsreen sils? Rare Spares have them, but some of their stock isn't exactly cheap. Are there prices on par with the going rate? or can they be had cheaper somewhere else?

To answer the question, budget is minimal at the moment, a few hundered upto around $600 for engine & box, Later down the track i hope to allocate around $3500 to $4500 on the drive line.

I can do all labour, and wiring.

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Old 05-04-08, 11:13   #23
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Rare spares do the panels new (or should) but they charge through the roof. Your best bet is ebay... but inspect before purchasing as theyre often bent and rusty.
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