Hi-Comp Experiment.

[vp_luke]

Hey guys,

I haven't really found any documented attempts at getting good power out of a completely stock hi comp motor on here - there's a lot rumours and stuff floating around that they blow gaskets etc, and also rumours of 10 sec passes from bog stock motors...

So I figured I'd put up my attempts at getting some good power out of a converted $150 NA motor and document them in a 'no bull' thread... and see what parts fail, how reliable this can be, etc. Along with putting up any tuning information that I pick up along the way... hopefully this will help some people in the future! - Also hopefully I can take on board some advice from people that have done similar experiments before!!

Please note that this probably isn't the right way to do things - just a bit of R&D really. There's a forged motor waiting for the car once this experiment is over (either the supporting mods have reached their peak/safety limit, or the experiment is cut short due to bulk engine destruction ) - and as long as the turbo or any of the bolt ons aren't hurt in the production of this experiment, I will be happy

I also have to mention that I'll be attempting to do all the tuning myself (eek!) which could quite possibly be the cause of destruction of this engine, but I'll do my best to play it safe as much as possible!...

I don't have a dyno or anything, so most tuning is done on a non-rolling road, with the help of the wideband o2 sensor and an engine simulation program called "engine analyser". - I'll be doing occasional power runs on the dyno to determine the outcomes of my tunes - if anyone is willing to donate some dyno time let me know lol!

So here's the specs of the engine as it is at the moment

IGNITION SYSTEM:
- stock coil, dizzy
- mallory 6a CDI
- .801mm gapped stock heat-range plugs
- new dizzy cap and rotor button
- new bosch leads

FUEL SYSTEM:
- Simmens 3145's 750cc injectors
- Bosch 044 motorsport fuel pump
- Surge tank
- hi-flo billet aluminium filter
- stock fuel lines
- vpw rail
- stock N/A pressure reg


INTAKE/EXHAUST
- Garret GT3582r, .5 front, .82 rear
- Turbosmart 48mm pro-gate (plumbed back into exhaust)
- 4" dump -> 3" exhaust with two straight thru mufflers
- custom low mount, 20"ish long runner exhaust manifold
- 2.5" hot side cooler piping, 3" cold side
- PWR 600x300x76 intercooler with 3" outlets
- XF throttle body
- JD customs plenum
- Shorter turbo runners
- Turbosmart dual stage boost controller.
- Turbosmart plumback BOV
- Z32 Air flow meter mounted PRE-TURBO


ENGINE:
- Rb30 hi-comp block, not rebuilt!
- 250,000km on it
- bores have a tiny lip on some of them, you can see the cross-hatching on some others, but overall a bit used..
- ACL monotorque head gasket, stock head bolts
- stock head and N/A cam.
- head looks to have been recoed at some stage

TUNING:
- Factory ECU modded with NIStune
- Innovate LC-1 wideband sensor
- DLP A/D converter, hooked up to a 2 bar MAP sensor, but not working anyway
- 15 deg base timing


So far I haven't had any power runs or anything, just been getting it to run righ as best I can... on the most boost I can get it to safely before heading to a dyno!

- 6PSI, stock VLT timing and fuel maps... no sweat! loving life.
- 10PSI, modified the maps a bit, approx 10:1 AFRS and 16 deg timing @ full noise - no problems.. 0-60mph on the Gtech: 4.82 with epic wheelspin in 1st.
- 12PSI ... basically the same as above, felt a bit quicker by the 'push in seat' and more eager to wheelspin. timing reduced to 15 deg. Had issues with spark 'blowing out' so gapped plugs to .8mm from 1.1mm
- 16psi. Maps modified to try get 11:1 AFRS, timing dropped to 15 deg @ full noise...


Having issues with inconsistent AFRS

- for a few runs they will go 10:1 on spool, then up to 11:1 then back to 10:1... which results in a decent run with no detontation to be heard/felt

- occasionally (the ECU is accessing the same cells in both scenarios!) the AFRS will go 10:1 on spool, then want to cause disaster and head up to 13:1... luckily I don't seem to have broken anything yet with the bits of detonation I've heard when this happens!

I do have a boost spike where the lean spot is at the moment, so the next steps are to change the wastegate spring to a 14psi spring (is a 7psi spring at the moment) and only bleed off a little bit of boost - hopefully this will remove the spike!

- however there is still the issue of the leaning out? - I reckon the injectors @stock pressure and fuel pump should be good enough to supply plenty of fuel at that boost level, even if there is a spike - the tune is set to supply 10:1 fuel at any higher boost levels anyway (maps extended appropriately) so it appears that it might be a non-tune related issue?

My suspected culprits are:
- N/A fuel reg not up to the task?
- Fuel dampner and/or one way valve blocking fuel flow
- fuel pump not getting enough voltage (the wires running to it are just extended off the stock fuel pump wiring)

I'll experiment with these over the next week or so and share my results. (and hopefully get a chance to ramp her up on the dyno)

In the meantime, please share any suggestions/advice/experiences with this sort of thing ! - hoping to hear some success stories

[loui2035]

im staying tuned on this 1 very interesting. good work mate

[vlwagz]

yeah keep us posted mate very interested in this.
goodluck

[YEP_boost]

Just spend some more time tuning around the cells as its coming on boost. That fuel system should be safe for around 300rwkw on std pressure and probably more.

[YUH8EN]

hey man im following in your footsteps ay
i orderd a gt3540 .7 front .82 rear got a custom high mount custom plenum. link ecu with hand controller 8inch wide chasers vlt diff. i just need some good injectors and im gunna crank up the boost and see how we go cant really afford to do to much cause im a first year but yeah let us know how u go.

[CJW]

Really interested in how this pans out mate because my setup is almost identical bar the turbo and AFM, and I plan on getting something similar turbo wise (and i'll also need to upgrade the AFM of course).

[13bt]

updates please

[INFLYT]

Nice idea man, and some good information and reading there.

[vp_luke]

Ok, small update..

I've pissed off the one way valve and fuel dampner, also wired the fuel pump to the battery via a relay, triggered by the stock pump wiring. (rather than running the pump entierly off the stock fuel pump wiring)

getting a reasonably flat AFR graph of high 9 to low 10:1-ish AFRS from turbo spooling right through till it runs out of revs!

timing is stil at 15 deg. @ around 15psi, dropping to 12deg @ 17psi with no signs of knock yet.

I've also upgraded the spring in the wastegate to a '14psi' spring - in reality it seems to spike to about 17psi after initial spool, then goes to about 14 psi - I'm not sure if this is because of the boost controller or not - will have to experiment!..

It spools noticably quicker now - I must have been having some 'gate creep issues before with the softer (7psi) spring.

I've also changed plugs to NGK's that are 1 heat range cooler than stock. (gapped to .8mm) Seems that with my FAT AFR's I'm fowling them up pretty quickly. - but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Not much progress with tuning: the weather hasn't been all that good (wet)... and you can't use more than 1/2 throttle in any gear at any speed without severe traction issues. It's also a bit of a handful in the dry - getting a bit dangerous to look at the laptop, keep an eye on the boost readings, listen for knock and try keep the car straight and 'safe' all at the same time.

I think I've found a dyno and a tuner now, though! so In the next 2-3 weeks I'll be heading down there and getting the car ramped up.. I'll see how good/crap my tune was and get the tuner to have a shot at it (and I'm sure he'll do much better than me! LOL)

I've also been advised to go with an adjustable pressure reg and set the base fuel pressure to +10-15psi of what it is - I'm guessing this is in order to get a better spray pattern out of the bigger injectors. - I'll probably get onto this later this week.

I'll update as more interesting stuff happens (probably when i get to the dyno!) - at the moment I reckon I've reached a 'safe baseline' and I think it's probably not worth risking doing more tuning on the street (for the sake of the motor AND my license), I might just pull some fuel so I don't fowl the plugs again

I also intend on posting up my tunes when i have the tuning laptop handy, which should hopefully give anyone else using the stock ECU a big head start - I'll also post up the one after dyno so long as the tuner doesn't mind.

[qldvl5spd]

Hey mate great to see your having such good results. I have nistune and gtr injectors in my vl hicomp, hiflow,cooler, around 10psi. I resized the injectors using nistune and the car has been running soo rich its not funny and lacking alot of power. I saw your tune (goodie) on nistune. and saved it and decided to copy the fuel map over to myn with almost instant better results. But car was pinging abit. So i put some more fuel in those areas and have stopped any audible pinging. I'm still looking for a wideband and im waiting for my tuner to tune the car. So this is just temp (and dodgey but i had to do something) Keep us updated on the progress champ.

Ian

[theVLguy]

hey mate, keep up the good work, got my car on nistune now with NA botten end with comp probly around the 9.2:1 and stock turbo setup with the goods, its noticibly heaps quicker on 6psi then it ever has been before due to being able to change high load timing, should crack that 13 now specially with my new auto

best $400 ever spent. i also copied your timing maps and worked off them :P just been doing lots of trial and error

[VLT-025]

Awesome thread. I'm keeping an eye on this

[[T]Matty]

You look to be running very close to what i have.. All i can see really different is i have a wolf, 660CC injectors and my turbo is a GT3082R with a .7front .82 rear, so they are close anyway..

Keep us posted, will be good too see how it comes out compared to mine. My car is in the hands of some masters ATM getting finished and tuned till the clutch slips befor the auto goes in (some months)

Oh and My adjustable fuel reg was just taking off and stock NA reg used again as its all thats needed.. And look at one of rajabs cars, stock reg and like 9 seconds..

[vp_luke]

Oh and My adjustable fuel reg was just taking off and stock NA reg used again as its all thats needed.. And look at one of rajabs cars, stock reg and like 9 seconds..

Yeah I reckon you're right, and definately can't argue with the shop built cars pulling great numbers. - I just don't have any way to log fuel pressure vs boost at the moment, to see if it's responding quick enough or able to handle the higher pressure.

It's a dead simple gizmo so I don't see any problem with keeping it there (other than the dodgy non-flared vac line connection ), but there's a school of thought that with big injectors you need to bump up the pressure a little bit to get a decent spray pattern out of them. - I guess better spray pattern means better efficiency which can only be a good thing!

I've also decided to get a MSD or Mallory 6a/Crane Hi6 ignition setup before I get it on the dyno - While you probably don't need the setup for the power I'll be making, it definately won't hurt! - Plus hopefully it means I'll be able to open up the plug gap a bit more, and check the 'efficiency' checkbox again.

[YEP_boost]

You can up the dwell table on the dyno if spark becomes an issue. Id do this first before spending money on the Hi6 or msd. Its already there in your Nistune so you might as well use it!

[fcuk]

keep the updates coming

[exchaser]

I started having ignition problems with a .8 gap @ 20psi pump fuel.
Upgraded to MSD 6A, which i bought second hand for 100 bucks and wired in myself. Haven't had a problem since, still standard coil.

It's a fresh N/A engine. with nothing more than new rings, new bearings, arp rod bolts and an rb25det oil pump. It cost **** all to build and it made 415rwhp today on 25psi pump/toluene.

Ran 10.59@125mph last week with probably 40hp less than wat it has now, drive it every single day (only car) reliable as anything.

Best of luck with your build.. threads like these are the ones worth coming on for a read..

Ollie

[HYPED6]

Few points. Any one feel free to let me know if you disagree.
CDI is awsome. It will smash a multipul spark with an input of under 9V with an output of 400V for about 0.003 sec. but necessary for your power levels not really.

the stock inductive setup with stock coil charge time can support over 500rwhp on 98 fuel. If your ignition system has any compromises then yes cdi will mask them but inductive (stock) will well and truly, when set up correctly be adiquite.

Also the stock NA fuel reg. Im yet to test this off the car, but a VL turbo reg is 1:1 under boost, im not to confident with the NA reg. It can be tuned around it with boost but if you think about it..... fuel pressure is say 30psi. then you put 15 psi at the other side of the pintle in the injector... all of a sudden there is only 15psi fuel pressure working its way into the cylinder. Can be tuned around it but halving the fuel flow rate??

Also winding up pressure to get better atomisation. You will find that most importantly for atomisation is the injector choice. If there is no choice then most large injectors unless EV6 design wont change atomisation untill around 80psi. If atomisation is the key, Run 550cc injectors and 100psi base pressure and you will be more than happy with the results

[pmac]

Just for the record, na and turbo stock regulators are the same

[vp_luke]

exchaser - mate that's inspiring stuff! WELL DONE! How long have you been running this setup for?

Not much progress in the way of any more bost yet - Hoping to get her ramped up on Saturday, but that depends on how busy the tuner is!

I've been fiddling with the tune to try get the car running nicely when just putting around the streets - it's slowly but surely getting less grumpy!

the stock inductive setup with stock coil charge time can support over 500rwhp on 98 fuel. If your ignition system has any compromises then yes cdi will mask them but inductive (stock) will well and truly, when set up correctly be adiquite.

There's quite a few cars getting round with numbers & times to prove that's true! I pondered about it a little bit, but I ended up ordering a Mallory 6A. Even if not completely necessary, multiple fat sparks defiantely can't hurt! - plus I'd rather do it now and iron out any bugs and tuning issues, rather than down the track with the built/good motor.

- speaking of tuning issues, what do people do about the dwell settings when using a CDI setup?

Also the stock NA fuel reg. Im yet to test this off the car, but a VL turbo reg is 1:1 under boost, im not to confident with the NA reg. It can be tuned around it with boost but if you think about it..... fuel pressure is say 30psi. then you put 15 psi at the other side of the pintle in the injector... all of a sudden there is only 15psi fuel pressure working its way into the cylinder. Can be tuned around it but halving the fuel flow rate??

The NA reg is also raises pressure 1:1 on boost - I swear! It's just a diaphragm with a spring on one side (that sets base pressure) - and boost/vacuum from the motor either aids or opposes the force of the spring on the diaphragm? allowing or not allowing fuel (on the other side of the diaphragm) to return to the tank?

In either case, the spring and setup in my car is 20 years old now, no gauge, and I don't know how well the spring and diaphragm can handle the added pressure, or how responsive it is, etc - so an Aeromotive fuel reg is on the way.

I don't know enough about the spray pattern/atomisation theory to discuss really - need to do some more reading I guess

The good news is the car has been driven on the current tune (15-16psi) a fair bit, and been given a pretty hard time with no pinging to be heard! Also pulled a bit more fuel out up top, it's closer to 11:1 now once on full noise. So far so good.

Eager to see how she goes on the dyno and what improvements can be made - Cheers for the advice and knowledge!

[HYPED6]

Cool bananas, Im going to do a little testing with the regs and post the results. Im actually very interested to see what happens. Definatly agree with the 6A. I have one on my car too, for back to back testing but no one can deneiy the easy of use thats for sure.

As for the dwell with CDI there is none. There is no coil charge time just a massive release of power. Thats why is can be done 3 times and ignition event.

[exchaser]

exchaser - mate that's inspiring stuff! WELL DONE! How long have you been running this setup for?

Thanks mate.. Have been running the hicomp setup since about this time last year. The engine went into the car 2 days before Jamboree last year (the second time around November 3, I cranked they key about 8am on the Friday morning, the car was tuned that afternoon (360rwhp) on that dyno and I raced it at about 10am Saturday Morning... 11.2@119mph - straight pump fuel/mt street radials. So short time frame but everything went to plan. At the time then, the car had the standard coil/ignition setup... it was only a little later on that I started to have the ignition problems, but im pretty sure that was just to do with dwell settings in the ecu, which prior to just putting the msd 6a on the car, we never played around with to try and see if we could get more out of the standard ignition setup, because I was less educated at the time and didn't think to look into that area much as we apparently hadn't made any changes there..

The car has done heaps of passes with this setup, its been out to queensland raceway.. seen the dyno about 3-4 times... has since run 10.5@125 and then has since made even more power, still has never missed a beat...

Sean is probably right about the standard igniton taking and supporting alot more than most ppl decide to throw at it, Andy (PSI 747) for example has run 10.5@130mph with the standard coil setup, no cdi... however for the cost... there are gains to be had by upgrading the ignition.. much the same as their are gains to be made by using a rajab plenum over a standard plenum, as an example.

Of course standard parts can support rediculous amounts of power, but spend a little extra and change them for aftermarket parts and you can make rediculous amounts of power even easier and more efficiently, with room to push even further if you so wish, rather than being at the limit of a particular parts capabilities.

When I installed MSD 6A onto my car, it was as simple as taking the ignition output wire from the ecu wich went to the power transistor and feeding it to the msd unit, and then from the msd unit u have the 2 wires that run to the standard coil, the msd unit has an earth a constant 12 V supply and an accessory 12v. There were only 3 settings to change in the ecu itself, and the details for that were described on the website for that ecu, according to wat unit was being hooked up. It took about 5 minutes all up with a laptop.

Let everyone know how yours goes on the dyno and whether u manage to squeeze anymore out of the setup..

Ollie

[rodger1]

are there any updates?

[Bax]

This threads been around a while, has some good info in it.

http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/showthread.php?t=115933

[vp_luke]

Dyno time tomorrow!

I've done the fuel reg (aeromotive a1000), base pressure is set @ 45psi.

I've also fitted up a mallory 6a unit. I had a few issues with it and some rougue sparking - but I solved those last night, I'd left the main earth straps for the engine/ecu loom loose after ripping the whole thing out and integrating the MSD setup.

Also fitted up a new dizzy cap and rotor - $65 bux! !

So she's all good to run up and get some numbers (and hopefully crank the boost!) tomorrow

For future reference, I didn't need to change any of the settings on the ECU for the ignition module to work - and i'm going through the transistor for the trigger.

Other than that, I've discovered the alternator isn't enough to support all this extra current at night time, with the headlights radio and heater on, falcon thermos going, 044 pumping... etcetc, so an upgrade will be in order as soon as the bank balance permits.

Stay tuned for some more info in the next day or so!!